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[Music]

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so so you're saying in college you felt

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the Tulsa program worked for you well in

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a way I mean what worked for me was

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having a community of people friends who

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didn't drink either so our whole social

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life was around that and that was just

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sort of the norm for me but as far as

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the steps I be I have to be honest I did

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do the steps I did the fourth the fourth

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and ninth step real thoroughly I did the

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fourth step for a couple of different

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ways and and they book big book talks

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about how when you complete those steps

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you feel all these miraculous changes in

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your life and your desire to drink goes

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away and your resentments and all that

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sort of thing and I had to be honest

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when I finished it I felt I felt a sense

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of accomplishment that I had done

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something you know to get better but I

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definitely didn't feel what it said I

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didn't feel like the things that I came

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up with in this by doing the four-step

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the way that it says to do it in the big

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book I didn't feel that it really gate

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what really created the sort of

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spiritual awakening and transformation

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that they talk about it sounds like you

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could almost describe it as a placebo

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kinda yeah I mean it was I think there's

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always some positive in taking really

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any positive steps toward you know just

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doing something makes a difference I

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think it helps you mentally but as far

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as you know that I'm sure a lot of your

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listeners have been are familiar

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somewhat with the 12 step with the 12

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steps and in the base what is step

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number four fourth step is the the

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searching and fearless moral inventory

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where you sort of assess all the things

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that are all your character defects that

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lead to you to drink drinking in a

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problematic way and that's that's an

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interesting one to me your character

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defects so it's really self examination

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of ways in which you are being less than

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a good person to put it simply so yeah I

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mean the way that's prescribed in the

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big book it's it's very much the way

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it's really not the big book it's very

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much Bill Wilson's personal inventory so

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it comes up as selfish self seeking

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dishonest fear

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there's like four different sort of

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basic quick or deep flex character

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defects that supposedly all people who

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suffer from alcoholism have and of

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course every person has those things to

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a certain degree but I definitely when I

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finish it I didn't feel like this was a

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real insight into who I was and why why

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I drank the way I did but I went along

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with it and I you know I went to

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meetings and talked up the game you know

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in the ninth step is that where you go

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around to people and apologize yeah and

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make amends and and I made amends for

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some that were pretty I mean there were

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there are a few things I did in junior

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high that I didn't think I had ever

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faced up to and I did and and it was I

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have to say I mean at the time when I

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did it it felt I mean he always feels

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sort of a good feeling of accomplishment

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when when you do something like that and

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but in the long run I don't really think

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it changed my life yeah I mean I guess I

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would ask as you point out interesting

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exercises to go through perhaps

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beneficial enlightening clearing of your

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conscience perhaps but what in doing

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steps 4 & 9 makes you less likely to

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drink what is the connection between 4

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and 9 and and an addiction alcohol

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that's right well for me I don't think

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that ultimately there was I mean I don't

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think that that was the direction where

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is it where is the science that says

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that when the brain acknowledges that I

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am a selfish person I'm a not a great

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person and when the brain goes through

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the process of apologizing to people

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that somehow the brains addiction to

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alcohol goes away where's the science

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there there isn't really I mean it's one

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of the things I go into my book is that

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a a just by nature of what it is and how

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it is defies any scientific any true

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scientific study of it so they're just

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having some study people are all citing

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and I've been citing it and I imagine

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you dug into this in your research the

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the study that shows its effective rate

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of only being 5 to 8%

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we'll see that that in itself is not

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scientific that's completely based on

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the AA's own internal surveys which are

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not controlled in any way so that's that

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just to be clear that's where the five

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to eight percent comes from is in there

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on a surveys that's correct but that's

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but Joe that's shocking hitting up

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itself in a zone information as

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indicating our success rate is only five

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to eight percent this isn't people going

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out to slam a a this is a a zone

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reporting that's this that's right yeah

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I mean the argument that they there was

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one paper quote-unquote paper produced

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by a member of AAA that had no real

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scientific or graduate really even

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graduate level experience for them aware

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of who who explained that these numbers

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are not accurate because the the

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ninety-five percent who leave don't

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actually work the program that in order

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for it to work you have to go to 90

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meetings in 90 days you got to get a

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sponsor works if you work the program

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that's right that's which I know if

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you've heard one of my intros on this

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but that's basically you saying it works

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if it works that's no I mean the whole

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point is wait a minute you've got them

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you've got people that come in your

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front door with a desire to quit

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otherwise they wouldn't be there or some

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inclination to quit so you've got a

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captured audience walking in the front

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door looking for treatment for this

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problem that they have bottom line is of

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those at the percentage that come in how

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many are leaving with the problem with

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the issue cured and that's the five to

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eight percent number that that's what

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they come up with yeah yeah now are you

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have you seen any other figures as far

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as there's one not not about

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specifically real AAA there was a big

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study called project match and late not

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in the 90s 2000s that purported to study

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AAA in comparison to cognitive

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behavioral therapy and another may be

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another

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a former treatment but that itself

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wasn't AAA they can't study a a because

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a is in some ways it's an anarchist ik

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group you know the way that works with

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anonymity there's no leader there's just

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no way to pin it down and have a control

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group next to that so what that study

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did was they used an approximation of a

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a which was really therapy using the

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12-step principles and what they found

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was that it was about equally successful

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compared to the other control groups